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'Bad girls go where they wish...'* (A part of a conversation) Magdalena Ujma: The actions of Lucia Tkacova and Anetta Mona Chisa seem to us very interesting since we cannot find a similar kind of art in Poland. In our country female art is more gentle and it is easily led by stereotypes and esentialism, which means by a conviction that there is something like typically female creativity - just an essence of feminity. Sometimes it comes into an open conflict with political principles, as for example Dorota Nieznalska did, however it is more a result of underestimating the possibilities of using art in terms of politics. The youngest generation uses popular motives of female art rejecting at the same time their ideological meaning and feminism. It is a step backwards, maybe even a greater reluctance to define oneself as a feminist than in the generation before them. Since the first Polish artists, such as Natalia LL, who in the 60s and 70s revealed feminism consciousness, rejected feminism itself. Joanna Zielinska: The art of the youngest artists just skims the surface, it does not explore the subject of sex. As you said, it uses the language of esentialist feminism but it does not do it to fight for something. It does not form a deep reflection, it is not politically involved. Magdalena Ujma: It is just a part of the market, an erotically appealing novelty. As a matter of fact it is a very traditional attitude, it answers to the needs of men who get excited about a young chick talking about her desire using dirty words. Joanna Zielinska: Lucia Tkacova and Anetta Mona Chisa play with the old stereotypes all the time, e.g. of a beautiful woman who can get what she wants thanks to her sex-appeal, who can benefit form being pretty. These artists are very brave in what they do, they are not afraid to criticize or even to compromise men connected with the art world. They hit their weak points, or even question their masculinity. Magdalena Ujma: Their art can be defined as postfeminist. Artists invited by us treat the second-wave and the quest for a typically female art with great irony. The second-wave feminism let the women speak but on the other hand it enabled closing women artists in a ghetto, which was comfortable for all the rest. Suddenly it occured that there is a separate category - women producing art who show all the features typical for women: the lack of logic, childishness, understanding for others, tenderness, being driven by emotions rather than intellect, a hysteric type of rebelliousness, connections with nature. It has been taken to an absurd level. Because such attitude and such a set of features ascribed to feminity results form being in a certain place and culture. What we like is the courage to leave this ghetto. Tkacova and Mona Chisa use a label, but as protesters and subversives, as commentators of how the art scene works. Joanna Zielinska: I like the fact that they are ruthless in what they do, they have no scruples. You said it is a female version of the Azorro Group and I think it's right. With the difference that they are focused on more universal reflection – or they wish to be considered so. The girls consider their sex important too. Magdalena Ujma: As far as the girls are concerned I also like their usage of the sex-marked language. It is mocking the way in which a girl is received in public space, that it always comes down to sex and that she is disciplined by it. She cannot be too sexual, she has to have an eye on herself. They are not afraid to show their interest in sex and men, to show they are women who can desire somebody, that they are heterosexual. On the other hand they do not fall into a trap of a complete sexualizing of women, of pornography. We have seen it in the Czech Republic – art very often goes to such extremes there. A woman imitating a sex toy becomes a sex toy. She becomes an object even though she puts it in quotation marks, the game with sexuality not as a subject but as an object is so powerful than one is not able to control it. Joanna Zielinska: They also run the risk of this sort of interpreting the game the other way round although it is so obvious. The stereotypes of thinking about female art are very strong. The films of Lucia Tkacova and Anetta Mona Chisa can be read as exciting films done by beautiful women. Their exhibition at Jeleni Gallery in Prague was a great scandal ("Nonstrategic Scenarios: The Red Library", 2005). Girls organized all the important artists and critics in categories connected with female desire. Magdalena Ujma: By evaluating the sexual value of men by women they made a perfect comment on the certain logic of the art world which is always underlying, which is not talked about because it's not on, and which is actually the main force behind the social life and the art world. However, usually it is the other way round because these are men who get together with their admirers, who boost their self-esteem by the existence of artistic grouppies, who have a social life. The categories used by the artists to evaluate men were witty: 'a man to have sex with only on a deserted island' or 'sex only to prolong the existance of mankind', 'always and everywhere', 'sex without pleasure'... Joanna Zielinska: The exhibition of Lucia Tkacova and Anetta Mona Chisa in Futura Galery in Prague ("Ortografio de Potenco", 2006) was much calmer. It did not cause a scandal. It was to analyze the position of the artist in the art world. Magdalena Ujma: I found this exhibition interesting in this rescpect that it concerned what is important for the artist from Eastern Europe. A self-mocking subject is about the East serving as the West's vassal. About a dream of Eastern artists to become popular in the West, about being inferior, about playing up to curators. The art of the girls is interesting because it is about a double exclusion. About an artist who is as good as the Western one but she cannot make a career and gain the market success she dreamt about. Not only because she lives in the East, but also because she is a woman. Joanna Zielinska: We are showing the works of Lucia Tkacova and Anetta Mona Chisa on this year's 'Women's Celebration' which we are organizing in July. In a way we withdraw from active participation in celebrating the 8th of March which is an International Women's Day. We also hope that the art of the artists invited by us form the Czech Republic and Slovakia will affect the feminist thought in Poland inspiring the new ways of thinking, far from limiting women to one type of work. Magdalena Ujma: One should add here that in 2004 and 2005 we organized artistic events in Cracow to celebrate the 8th of March. We called them quite obviously Women's Day. This year however we decided to move it from March to July. The celebration of the 8th of March has become so popular – thanks to club and artistic events, not even mentioning the Manifestos - they have grown in number so much that we no longer feel the need to join them. We want to stretch the problem of women over the entire year. Cracow, March 2006 *The title was inspired by 'Good Girls Go to Heaven and The Bad Ones Go Where They Wish' by Ute Ehrhardt, Warsaw 2003. The complete version of this converation was published in the online issue of 'Obieg': www.obieg.pl back